"Our party comprehends its action as a sacrifice troop"
You declared that your members and supporters were also there among the revolutionaries massacred in Suruç. It was known that the massacre aimed at your party and the development of your youth. Also, in Ankara massacre, in Rojava, in Dersim, revolutionaries from your ranks reached immortality. You have often brought up the term "Party of immortals" recently. What does this mean?
As we define our party in Rojava revolution, we described ourselves as "sacrifice troop". Revolution, is the achievement of organized masses, we know this. In this gigantic movement, in accordance with the comprehension of vanguarding, we are carrying the responsibility of taking the foremost places on the fronts. Revolution can only develop relying on such a vanguarding and leadership potential. Being the revolution's sacrifice troop means completely engaging the revolutionary purposes, not having any other purposes than revolutionary purposes, not having narrower, more introverted purposes and that paying the price of this tough struggle with lives or spending the lifetime resisting in prisons. So our party comprehends its action as a sacrifice troop. It sees itself as such a vanguard subject. "Party of immortals" is a symbolism of the reality that women and men from all ages, comrades who worked on various fronts of the party, are increasingly, faster and more intensely going over the death, confronting with the death. By that, the party told itself: you shall pay tens and hundreds of times more prices than you already did and by walking on such a line in accordance with revolutionary purposes, you shall organize the victory. Whichever front of the party you are working on, you shall be aware of the enemy's destruction threat and you shall be ready to take part in the most conflictive footholds of the struggle.
Yesterday, may be most of the comrades can tell the names of our martyrs at one swoop. But, after September 2013 when Serkan Tosun comrade reached immortality, those who can count all the names of our immortal comrades, have decreased, naturally.
We are carrying on an eye-for-an-eye struggle against our peoples' enemies, against a fascist, colonialist, expansionist dictatorship. This struggle will require very heavy costs. When a revolutionary party cannot risk of being the party of immortals, carry this weight in practice, generate its thought and emotion accordingly; it also cannot go beyond staying at the edge of war and being a mediocre political force. We are using this term to put forth this consciousness clearly, to make those starting from the professional revolutionary cadres to all party cadres, members and member candidates, advanced supporters; shape themselves in such a spirit and consciousness, create their feelings, thoughts and actions on this basis. The youthful men and women who lost their lives in the last two years, and the comrades who dedicated their relatively long lifetimes to revolution are indeed those who originated this term. We, just simply name their actions and wanted to create the consciousness of this reality to come forward which becomes as one of the aspects of the communist vanguard's existence.
Regarding that disappearances under police custody, immortals, imprisoned ones in the last two years outnumber the previous periods, what was the moral reflection of this on your ranks? How do you evaluate this level of losses?
Nazım, the master poet of Turkish had said "this two undying dead are two immortals/ bourgeoisie invited us to fight/ their invitation is accepted". Throughout the history, the struggles between the oppressor and the oppressed have thrived with big costs. In all the struggles whether it succeeded or failed, people's humanistic sublimity arises in different ways.
In the history made under fire, immortals, ghazis and prisoners have taken a significant part in the communist vanguard's life as symbols of our revolutionary war, our party's determination, daring and victory courage. Fascist enemy has developed will-crushing plans from time to time to block our party's raising its struggle level and organized attacks. In 1995, upon our attack to 100. Yıl police station in Bağcılar within the campaign of taking Gazi massacre's revenge, they murdered Hasan Ocak comrade by torture under custody and wanted to disappear him. We knew what they were telling us: "you will face much more heavier than this if you move forward". We moved forward, we faced with heavier things, but never stopped. Thus, they carried out a heavy massacre in Pirsus as the requital of our unified revolution line, our positioning in Rojava as a Kurdistani force, young communists' determinedly raising the struggle. They wanted to break our will-power, but failed and we walked on our path. They massacred Berçem and Ekin comrades with a total fascist cruelty at their besieged base under disadvantageous conditions and so they told us not to try expanding and growing our urban guerrilla actions. We didn't stop, we moved on. And we replied the enemy by telling them that we are going to expand and grow our political struggle not only with urban guerrilla and also with rural guerrilla.
Commenting on just by looking at the prices paid by the names of immortals and prisoners, by sighing about it, only shows that the conditions under which we try to make our way are not seriously thought about, and that a meaningful association with its results is not created. Surely, our party now has the responsibility and duty of recognizing new illegality conditions, developing methods, techniques, tactics to reply these conditions. However, this is a job that can only be done in the process of struggle. The party, shall improve its mental labor, practical competency, predictive power in order to reduce the losses from its own mistakes on all fronts of the struggle; however it shall be aware of that it is struggling against a head-to-toe destroyer enemy, it is continuing this struggle not under its own terms but under terms found readily and shall be aware of the consequences of this; it shall ensure the mental solidity this requires; it shall realize that immortals, ghazis and prisoners should be like a bridge on a river seen impassable or on an edge of a cliff.
While on one side, the enemy's cruelty, bloodthirstiness, efforts to stand with a terror regime, unlimited usage of all the opportunities of technology, efforts to do its best with all the financial, financial and human sourcing force to protect its public-enemy governance; on the other side, the facts that need to be focused which revolutionaries and our peoples must act with the consciousness by which they can beat the enemy despite all these inequivalent conditions, by doing the only thing they can do, depending on human creativity, human courage, humanistic and righteous ideals. It should always kept in mind that you should not even once hide the fact that heavy prices will be paid in a practice carried out with such consciousness; on contrary, you should know that there is no advancing by any other ways, that there is no way reaching the revolution without giving martyrs, being tortured, getting imprisoned, knowing that there has never come up such a way up to now and there will not be such a way; and act with the clear consciousness of these. We are looking at the prices we paid in this struggle by asking how we could avoid which ones of these; we are doing this to be more competent in the struggle. This is inside the viewpoint of surpassing our martyrs. For this, without a doubt, we have the responsibility of being more equipped while fighting with the enemy, digesting all the lessons, minimizing the losses resulted from irregularity and amateurism. And we are fulfilling what this requires. However, we do not believe "being revolutionary without any price" lie, and we know very well that this perspective did destroy the revolutionary potentials before and will destroy it in the future.
You pointed out that you took place in Rojava revolution both as an internationalist force and a Kurdistani force. Naturally, the internationalist side has been a more apparent, prominent and much-discussed side in Turkey and Northern Kurdistan. As a Kurdistani force, what was the meaning of this experience for the communists from Kurdistan?
The main element of our presence in Rojava is our being a Kurdistani force. We are the party of the working class of Turkey and Kurdistan. We are the party of Turkey and Kurdistan peoples' favors, demands and longings. For that reason, it is our revolutionary duty to be present in Rojava and other parts of Kurdistan, like Şengal of Southern Kurdistan. If we cannot organize and struggle in all parts of Kurdistan for now, it is only related with our restricted power today and inadequate sides of our works. Our party remarks the unity of Kurdistan people as an article in its program. So it does not think of Kurdistan as Northern in isolation, Southern in isolation, Eastern in isolation or solely as Rojava. It thinks of them separately, but also together as a whole. Our internationalist side, on the other hand, relies on children of various national communities such as Circassian or Arabic people's alongside those of Turkish people. From their perspective, looking at the matters with an internationalist spirit reality of their party means exhibiting an appropriate praxis against dominant nation chauvinism and social chauvinism in accordance with proletariat internationalism spirit. As a party that approaches the issues like regional revolution and world revolution in a Leninist way, this also means a call for revolutionaries, antifascists, progressives from all corners of the world to act with solidarity with Rojava revolution, to sweat within the economical and social construction of the revolution.
Our party revised its Kurdistan organization with a new approach after its 5th congress. Thus, this is closely related with our presence and struggle in Rojava. Today, our party have a Kurdistan organization and so, under its administration, there are Bakur (Northern) Kurdistan organization and Rojava organization. As our struggle grows, undoubtedly, this point of view potentially consists of organizing a work which looks at the matters with the needs and revolutionary duties of other parts of Kurdistan.
Well, how can Kurdistan revolution advance, what dangers are there in front of its progress? Where do you put the struggle in Turkey in terms of regional revolution?
Considering denialist-colonialist Turkish bourgeois state, colonialist Iran state, Southern Kurdistan administration who makes reactionary alliances with the regional colonialists, also USA imperialism who follows the line of choking the national democratic movement unless it is bowdlerized and NATO's policies and aims; Kurdistan revolution can be developed outside all these enemy fronts, within the struggle against them, despite their presence and by destroying the boundaries they put. Rojava revolution is the most obvious indication of it. Lessons in the last 5-6 years of period have proved that Kurdistan revolution cannot progress by staying in defense and it cannot win victory by making different types of deals and alliances with the region states. Making use of the conflicts between imperialists or regional reactionaries and making conditional, partial, temporary compromises are in the nature of political fight. However, these have to be in accordance with a clear target. That clear target is letting Kurdistan have the victory either by a movement of powers from all four parts of Kurdistan or by a unified struggle with other peoples within all four parts.
National liberation became unachievable without social salvation. Getting out of imperialist system must be inevitable. This, uniquely, was defined as "third way" in Rojava. But, even the victory of third way in its own logic means getting the power. Thus, it has to be opposed to colonialist Assad government regime which leaves Syrian people without politic freedom, opposed to Turkish bourgeoisie's colonialism, to ISIS gangs or sovereignty policies of NATO and Russia in Syria. You cannot walk in balance with these till the end. Trusting its self-power which the leadership of national democratic movement often emphasizes, leaning on the struggle union with the regional peoples and opening the path of a social and political organization outside the existing states to gain competence and moving forward into this path are imperatives for the success of Kurdistan revolution. Like all working class in the world, all the poor and all the peoples; Kurdistan people has the right of social justice and equality which find its meaning in socialism. Narrowing down to only a national frame, as can be seen in the name of Southern Kurdistan government, does not create happy results for Kurdish workers and poor, Kurdish peasants, Kurdish women and youth. For this reason, Kurdistan revolution has to develop hand to hand with the struggles against imperialist yoke on one side and capitalist relationships' yoke on the other side.
What do the 1st Communist Women's Conference and foundation of Communist Women's Organization (KKÖ) reflect in terms of a threshold, accumulation and future aspect? What did your party bring in to woman liberation struggle and laboring lefts' relationship with woman liberation struggle? What have been the acquisitions of CWO for your party? What are the things that you aim to surpass in upcoming periods?
Since the foundation of our party, it has deepened its Marxist-Leninist comprehension about woman liberation issue. Its perspective which sees the revolution tied firmly with woman liberation likewise new society is also tied with it has been brought to Communist Women's Organization partly in an evolutionist style and partly with ruptures. As much as the idea, that woman liberation struggle and woman liberation is not a substitute of socialist struggle, rather it is one of the basic elements and keys in the process of classless society, takes place and grows in our party's theoretical-ideological comprehension, its correspondences have politically and organizationally occurred step by step. Communist Women's Organization is the most vivid and most meaningful sign of it. Surely, Communist Women's Organization is just a beginning. Communist women's applying the practices of classless-genderless society viewpoint to party life, more importantly, our party's finding the genuine ways for women masses to liberate, appear as subjects and organize themselves within political struggle, will be the most needed and desired progresses.
On the laboring left front, two aspects were ahead in the reformist and revolutionary organizations. While often consuming all the pretentious words about woman liberation, gender equality, terminating all kinds of male dominance and the importance of all these; however not creating any correspondences to their words on woman cadres' taking leadership responsibilities of the struggle and not adding woman cadres in party life or not taking any steps towards politicizing woman masses, turning them into political subjects and vanguards; all of these almost became the main characteristic feature of the first aspect. Second aspect, on the other hand, was the aspect of seeing woman liberation struggle outside the class struggle, seeing it as one of the side issues of class struggle. They were preaching about struggling for the revolution and waiting for the salvation that revolution provides rather than women's changing their situations by struggling or carrying out a struggle against patriarchy starting from today. Thus, it was the most vulgar approach.
Our party has interfered to both situations by action. It made a transforming impact by struggling to all these reactionary sides, such as word and action inconsistencies of the attitudes of parties and groups which are mainly working in especially Turkey region, claiming that they are organizing on a class basis not on national basis; such as the stances of those who do not find engaging firmly with the woman liberation forces, woman liberation battle and consciousness in the struggle against male dominance appropriate to their being Marxist-Leninist or being Marxist-Leninist- Maoist. This impact has been going on alongside with not only transforming these reactionary attitudes, but also the practices of our party's enriching its ideas and transforming them in some ways.
You can find this progress in our understanding that gives our woman organization the first and last word right to decide about woman cadres or in the woman leadership concept. You can also follow our deepening in Marxist-Leninist comprehension and surpassing the understanding of seeing woman liberation struggle as only a substitute force of revolution. So this means it does not have to stay only as democratic woman movement. Woman liberation struggle, beyond the struggle of woman's getting their democratic rights, has the potential to thrive as a main force to construct straightly the socialist society.
When you especially consider the politic-islamist fascist palace junta backed ISIS massacres and state terror wave following the July 15th* as limiting effects on mass struggle, what do you have in mind about mass organization and mass politics in your tactics of this period? You stated that politics have been performed mainly by military means and that we are in a period which revolutionary violence will step to the front more in the class struggle. Does the war's getting severe result in backing off from the mass oriented struggle line, or will it do that?
Our political fight aims at gathering big powers together to win bigger battles and take the revolution to victory. Other than this, we have never followed a perspective that narrows down to isolated clashes between state powers and revolutionary powers. We are bringing up the demands, longings, problems of masses to the agenda of the struggle and so, we are trying to get the masses to take sides on this basis, organize in larger scales and mobilize to the struggle, if appropriate to say, make them subjects. Our organization style includes this, and also our struggle style does. Well, like legal structures may include hundred thousands, millions; illegal and military structures can also include thousands, ten thousands. In the end, we base on organizing masses in various fields and different styles to improve the struggle. So, our perspective of mass struggle is not restricted only by legal and unarmed struggle styles. It is, of course also possible that ten thousands and hundred thousands can join to struggle as militia or guerrilla.
(Translator's note: July 15th 2016 is the date of the failed coup attempt.)
Leaving this one side, today, the need of economic and democratic styles of mass struggle or more politically involved ones have the major importance. It is a fact that the attacks which are based on the strategy ensuring people's wide-range forces to step back from the struggle by mass massacres had an impact. For instance, this had happened as weakening in the revolutionary rise in mass movement after 1977, May 1st massacre. Or we saw a different kind of break in Maraş. All of these had the intention of narrowing, weakening the mass struggle, preventing its rising. Today, massacres by ISIS have the same purpose and this has some effects too. The worry for life safety created a natural hesitation in people who run to streets ambitiously before. Secondly, systematic state terror, custody, arrest, prison policy again made a limiting impact on some level. In this, our party and other revolutionary parties have the sin by not creating a military fight for people's defending themselves against aggressive state forces. Because masses have an intuition, a standpoint. And that intuition, that standpoint makes them perceive the need of styles other than peaceful street demonstrations, other than even virtual-legitimate street protests against the enemy's present methods. We cannot ignore the share of incompetencies on this matter causing masses' hesitation. Moreover, we have to consider the effects of tactics, policies, discourse that push the masses back to the most reactionary defense line, that cause them to feel deeper worry for life safety and to avoid them stepping forward.
What was the situation for the subjects that produce this kind of discourse, policy and tactics? What are you saying to the masses stepping back to defensive line, living in fear of life safety?